Face to Faith
Published 1 year, 9 months ago in My life.Face to faith
Secularists who dismiss Christianity as the choice of the stupid should turn their critical gaze a little closer to home, says Giles Fraser
Saturday October 22, 2005
The Guardian
Guess who said this: “How much boundlessly stupid naivety is there in the scholar’s belief in his superiority, in the good conscience of his tolerance, in the simple, unsuspecting certainty with which his instincts treat the religious man as inferior and a lower type which he has himself evolved above and beyond.” Some uppity Christian complaining about warmed-up anti-clericalism in the Guardian? Or the most vociferous atheist of them all, that great genius of anti-Christianity, Friedrich Nietzsche. For although Nietzsche hated Christianity, he also recognised that atheism is prone to a self-satisfied smugness in which religion is written off as a fool’s game, practiced by suckers and easily coopted by the wicked.
Article continues
We hear a lot about the moral failings of religion, mostly Christianity. That’s no bad thing - Christianity has been responsible for some of the worst moral outrages of western history. Those who dislike religion provide a much-needed counterweight, holding the faithful to account. But religions like Christianity are not without deep resources of self-criticism. Jesus himself was a fierce opponent of pathological religion and keen to expose its abuses of power. As Marx recognised, much of the critical apparatus of western thought was developed as a critique of Christianity - and mostly by Christians themselves.
But what resources of self-criticism has atheism developed? Little, it seems. Rarely is a critical lens directed inwards. Once the campaigning atheist has seen the light, they remain on-message, keen to convert all unbelievers. Last week, as Maryam Namazie picked up her award for Secularist of the Year, she proposed “an uncompromising and shamelessly aggressive demand for secularism. Today, more than ever, we are in need of the complete de-religionisation of society.”
Howard Thompson, former editor of the Texas Atheist, once insisted that: “Total victory is the only acceptable goal in a mind-control war, because humanity is diminished so long as a single mind remains trapped in superstition.” This chilling certainty may be why modern-day campaigning atheists have lost much of the moral sophistication of their forebears. While the ordinary atheist remains indifferent to religion and all its ways, the born-again atheist has adopted the worst arrogance of Christian fundamentalists - just in negative.
Part of the problem is that many born-again atheists remain trapped in a 19th-century time warp, reheating the standard refutations of religious belief based on a form of rationalism that harks back to an era of fob-watches and long sideburns. One Oxford don has called the website of the National Secular Society a “museum of modernity, untroubled by the awkward rise of postmodernity”. Ignoring the fact that at least three generations of thought have challenged an uncritical faith in rationality, the society continues to build its temples to reason, deaf to claims that it is building on sand.
This commitment to Victorian philosophy turns to farce when campaigning secularists describe themselves as freethinkers. In truth, atheism is about as alternative as Rod Stewart. The joke is that many who were converted at university via Richard Dawkin’s The Selfish Gene think of themselves as agents of some subversive counterculturalism. This is ridiculous to Da Vinci Code proportions. Contemporary atheism is mainstream stuff. As John Updike put it: “Among the repulsions of atheism for me has been its drastic uninterestingness as an intellectual position.”
Philosophers of the calibre of Nietzsche made the effort to understand what animates genuine religious belief - which is why his attack upon Christianity is all the more effective. These days, philosophical acumen has been replaced by cheap jokes about the sexuality of nuns. As religion returns to the geopolitical scene with frightening malevolence, secularists ought not to be handing out awards and congratulating themselves. They must first try to understand religious belief. That means dispensing with their own self-congratulatory piety: it’s the only route to an effective challenge.
· Giles Fraser is the team rector of Putney and lecturer in philosophy at Wadham College, Oxford
Article found here…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1599503,00.html
33 Responses to “Face to Faith”
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stuck in the 19th century ? part of the reason for that is that it is where the first options OTHER THAN religion began.
although , bible types are stuck a bit further back than that !!!!!!
but really , stupidity is stupidity wherever you see it , people who fear crossing the path of black cats have a stupid and irrational belief.
the same as people who believe in a grey beardedman in th clouds watching them 24/7
Yes the grey bearded man in the clouds is a totally man made thing.
I agree some things in this world are stupid but I don’t believe the philosophy of an omniscient, omnipotent and wholly good God is; or atheism for that matter.
All religion is man made.
Yes religion is man made but omniscient, omnipotent and wholly good God is not.
the bible is made by man .
As is all the rest.
how is it then peopleknow of god?
by the man written bible?
For something allegedly based on love, religion has been the major cause of more meaningless deaths than any other reason used to exclude another human from participating in a particular society . Are we better off without it, maybe? But now that I have expressed my opinion lets see the bigoted intolerance that says that I am not allowed to have my opinion about religion.
People know of God because God was invented by People. It’s all about control of people by other people.
I’ve read several times now on this website that religion is the biggest cause of inhumanity on the planet but I wonder, is it really true? Wouldn’t good old tribalism rival religion for this inglorious honour? Most of the major conflicts of last century set country against country, or political idealogy against another, or had ethnic hatred at their core, didn’t they?
meinrosebud I too would like to see an end to hate, bigotry, inhumanity and most certainly meaningless deaths. But the pessimist in me wonders if the people who perpetrate these evils didn’t use religion as their excuse might they simply find another? I fear that human nature, not religion, is at the core of the most appalling behaviour.
I agree with solomongrundy. The US takes God out of schools. Does the violence stop? Or does it get worse? It doesn’t get any better that’s for sure.
And even if you could get rid of all religion, all you would be left with is humanism. Which is really another religion.
could humanismreally be called a religion?
“Humanism[1] is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationalism. Humanism is a component of a variety of more specific philosophical systems, and is incorporated into several religious schools of thought. Humanism entails a commitment to the search for truth and morality through human means in support of human interests.”
fromwiki ……
does it fit?
I agree with solo but add to that, power, greed, money,control, they dont need religion.
QUOTE
“could humanism really be called a religion?”
It depends on your definition of religion. Here are a few…
1. A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.
2. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience
3. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe
It is more commonly referred to as having a faith in some unseen power, creator, or cause; or an institution to express belief in a divine power.
As I have discussed with ackbar elsewhere, I believe so follow atheism like a religion (as he does), as if it were. Now if all religions were gone and humanism was all that was left, then yes most definitely humanism would become a religion. But there are many today who believe it already is a religion, in the broad sense of the term.
so by your own definition
“it is more commonly referred to as having a faith in some unseen power, creator, or cause; or an institution to express belief in a divine power.”
it is not .
so why is it you like to call it , and atheism religions?
Nice pic Jad, is that a FTO
QUOTE
“so by your own definition
“it is more commonly referred to as having a faith in some unseen power, creator, or cause; or an institution to express belief in a divine power.”
it is not .”
Correction, 1 of 4 definitions. The more common being the fourth definition, obviously.
QUOTE
“so why is it you like to call it , and atheism religions?”
Why do I like to call atheism a religion? Is that what you are asking? It’s not something I ‘like’ to do as if I find pleasure in it or something, it is simply a logical definition for most if not all atheists I’ve encountered. eg. Something one believes in and follows devotedly. A specific fundamental set of beliefs; and for the really one-eyed atheists, a cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
These are all dictionary definitions btw.
In the broad sense of the word religion is not limited to just the fourth definition in my previous post, belief in a divine and unseen power. That is why I would refer to atheism as a religion, because it is for some. And I said it in context to the idea of getting rid of all religions, if that were to happen. Atheism is a component of the humanistic world view.
it seems that whenever you mention any world view other than religion , it is also a religion, it seems to be a common thing among religious people , like a “I know you are but what am I”or “it takes one to know one” type of school yard argument.
as you said youself, the most common definition of relgion DOES not include these world views in it so ….. whats the point of grasping at your definition?
just seems a little ….well frankly … silly and childish..
when people talk of getting rid of religions , they are talking about getting rid of all belief in deities, not world views.
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“it seems that whenever you mention any world view other than religion , it is also a religion, it seems to be a common thing among religious people , like a “I know you are but what am I”or “it takes one to know one” type of school yard argument.
as you said youself, the most common definition of relgion DOES not include these world views in it so ….. whats the point of grasping at your definition?
just seems a little ….well frankly … silly and childish..”
I don’t consider myself in a religion either but people call me that all the time. It doesn’t bother me one way or the other. I’m not grasping at my definition. I have given 4 different definitions other than the deity definition. It is you that is grasping on to the one deity definition only and not including the rest.
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“when people talk of getting rid of religions , they are talking about getting rid of all belief in deities, not world views.”
Yes and what I am saying is that if all religions were somehow gotten rid of, humanism would actually become a religion in and of itself. Everybody would become their own God as it were. Self.
the belief in ones self is a religion?
please….
you dont consider yourself in a religion , but by your own definition , you are .. so what is it you believe you are in ?
a country club ?
seriously its just sily to argue over pedantic definitions of the word religion, where the common definition is what every one uses.
however if you were to accept that definition , then you ARe in a religion , and agnostics (me) atheists humanists etc are not…
so what other words are you lobbying to get changed?
priest ?
so that would include richard dawkins then …..
church?
church will include a meeting room , ? maybe a scientific lab ?
really , you are being silly…..
QUOTE
“the belief in ones self is a religion?
please….”
Your taking it completely out of context. Everybody would become their own God as it were if all religions were somehow gotten rid of.
Back in the real world where you can’t get rid of all religions even if you tried, it would be different. But there are beliefs out there where you are your own God, where the entire universe revolves around you. Humanism is just the start of that train of thought.
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“seriously its just sily to argue over pedantic definitions of the word religion, where the common definition is what every one uses.
however if you were to accept that definition , then you ARe in a religion , and agnostics (me) atheists humanists etc are not…”
I accept all 5 five definitions which come from the dictionary. If I were to accept only that one deity definition then yeh sure I am in a religion and atheists and humanists are not.
definitions come from common use .
the common use of the word is obvious.
dictionaries list possible definitions of words , they do not define them forcommon use , people do that , it is apparent what the common use is for the word religion .
again i would say you are grasping at the dictionary to make you feel better about yourself by trying to tar everyone else by the same brush.
The bit you say about the universe revolving around you … well that sounds wholely familiar , in both an ancient belief of christians and , the current beliefs that humans hold such an important role in the universe.
quite egotistical.
QUOTE
“again i would say you are grasping at the dictionary to make you feel better about yourself by trying to tar everyone else by the same brush.”
Sorry no that’s not what I mean, to tar everyone else by the same brush. Grasping is not my intention either. I don’t need to feel better about myself because of a word.
You say that the dictionary does not define a word for common use, but people do; and the common definition of the word religion is the deity definition. I agree with you. But it’s not the only common definition as you claim it to be. As I have exampled elsewhere on Nook, people also regularly say things like “He follows Collingwood religiously”. This is a broader sense of the word, as I have mentioned before and is uses the ‘other’ definitions of religion quite well.
I’m not trying to broaden the definition to the point where everything, even the ‘country club’ as a religion. That is ludicrous. If I have done so then please accept my apology. I would blame my bad writing skills for portraying that.
If it offends you that I call atheism a religion then I am sorry and I won’t do it again. My only reason for it is because some atheists follow it like it is a religion, minus the deity, like they would a football team. I hope that clears it up for you.
My other thought about Humanism becoming a religion is with regards to the hypothetical that the world was rid of all deity religions. It is my opinion, not a fact, that if that were to happen then humanism would actually become a religion where you are your own god and you worship and praise yourself and pray to yourself.
QUOTE
“The bit you say about the universe revolving around you … well that sounds wholely familiar , in both an ancient belief of christians and , the current beliefs that humans hold such an important role in the universe.
quite egotistical.”
Can you expand on that for me please. I know in ancient Christian and scientific believed the earth was the center of the universe and everything revolved around that, not humans though. In the Christian belief it has always been Jesus Christ (God) as the center of everything, not just the universe.
Humans do hold a very important role in the universe though, biblically speaking. God created it for us I believe.
QUOTE
“Nice pic Jad, is that a FTO”
Yes that is the mighty FTO brian.
Here is an FTO photo gallery for those interested…
www.freshtouringorigination.com
It does not “offend me ” it annoys me for the same reason that when people mean you are and shorten it to your instead of you’re , its just WRONG.
The country club analogy being ludicrous is right , and that is how it comes across when religious people call atheism and this and that and the other a religion.
just FYI
and religious_LY_ is wholely different to religion.
but im sure i dont need to explain that to you .
with the centre of the universe thing , wasnt whats his name locked up for going against bibllical belief and saying earth revolves around the sun , rather than otherwise ?
galileo?
to me it is clear that the universe wasnt created FOR US.
looking at the scale of which is outside our appreciation , says a lot among other things.
I think it is egotistical to believe that humans are so important in the whole scheme of things .
if anyone is going to “inherit the earth” , it is not humans , its more likely to be bacteria.
which makes me think , maybe god created the universe for bacteria and we got it all mixed up …. maybe……
QUOTE
“with the centre of the universe thing , wasnt whats his name locked up for going against bibllical belief and saying earth revolves around the sun , rather than otherwise ?
galileo?”
Yeh I think so. I think it was the Catholic church that did that, with their interpretation of scripture. Also worth noting is there were some good God fearing scientists back in the day that believed the earth wasn’t flat either. They were persecuted among other scientists who thought the same thing.
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“to me it is clear that the universe wasnt created FOR US.”
“looking at the scale of which is outside our appreciation , says a lot among other things.
“if anyone is going to “inherit the earth” , it is not humans , its more likely to be bacteria.”
“which makes me think , maybe god created the universe for bacteria and we got it all mixed up …. maybe…… ”
What is it exactly that makes you think the universe wasn’t created FOR US? As humans we are the most intellectual creature on this planet and the known universe. The only intelligence in bacteria is the creator behind it. In and of itself it can decide nothing on its own.
Universe made for us ?
Well, where do you start , there are so many ways in which the universe was NOT made for us .
the sheer size of it for a start , how fragile we are.
Th fact that SOOO many things exist outside our range of senses both large and small.
The deadly nature of much of the worlds/universe And its elements.
its such a long list…
We are alone, there are no other highly developed monkeys out there in space. Get over it and live your life to the fullest with love and joy. Religion uses control and guilt to control you. You should use your self control to behave in a mature and meaningful way, and not have to rely upon fables and legends.
I can’t believe in someone who tells me to kill to maintain the faith… sounds like dollars & power to me.
QUOTE
Universe made for us ?
Well, where do you start , there are so many ways in which the universe was NOT made for us .
the sheer size of it for a start , how fragile we are.
UNQUOTE
How does size and how fragile we are tell you the universe was not made for us?
QUOTE
Th fact that SOOO many things exist outside our range of senses both large and small.
UNQUOTE
An example please? Wouldn’t something ‘outside our range of senses’ be something unscientific though? As in you couldn’t use that as a realistic basis for concluding that the universe wasn’t made for us?
QUOTE
We are alone, there are no other highly developed monkeys out there in space. Get over it and live your life to the fullest with love and joy. Religion uses control and guilt to control you. You should use your self control to behave in a mature and meaningful way, and not have to rely upon fables and legends.
I can’t believe in someone who tells me to kill to maintain the faith… sounds like dollars & power to me.
QUOTE
I think it’s the people that use religion to kill to maintain faith, use control and use guilt to control others, not God. My self control to behave in a mature and meaningful way comes from Jesus Christ, neither a fable or a supposed legend. He is a real person who walked on this earth and it can be backed up historically, with eye witnesses.
What a crock this all is …
your self control comes from jesus christ?
how do you figure that ?
does that mean that I cannot behave in a mature and meaningful way ?
if you need fantasy as a crutch …. i guess you are welcome to it . but it makes you weak.
there is a large number of biblical historians that say jesus is a myth.
with NO contemporary accounts , and more…..
share something,…… why do you believe in god?
then …. tell me why other people believe in god …..
QUOTE
your self control comes from jesus christ?
how do you figure that ?
END QUOTE
Hi bovered,
What I mean is, sure we all have some form of self control, but we are not perfect at it be any means. I can lack a lot of self control when it comes to chocolate, yet sometimes I am quite good with it. But I believe all self control, from the smallest form to the most serious form, can be helped, improved and even conquered through Jesus Christ. Sure there are lots of other ways in the world to conquer say smoking or drug addiction; but I believe Jesus Christ can conquer all because He was sinless even though He went through the same temptations, and self control issues we face everyday in our lives.
QUOTE
does that mean that I cannot behave in a mature and meaningful way ?
END QUOTE
Not at all. We all have the ability to behave in a mature and meaningful way. We also have the ability to behave in absolutely terrible ways, if we want to. Again some things we have quite good self control over, others we don’t. I’m sure if you think hard enough you can find plenty of areas in your life you could improve on. I know I can.
None of us are perfect in any one thing that we do. We can always improve on things like the way we talk to people, the way we react in an argument etc. Right across the board through health, fitness, money, lusts etc. We use or don’t use our self control in absolutely everything.
QUOTE
if you need fantasy as a crutch …. i guess you are welcome to it . but it makes you weak.
END QUOTE
You are presuming Jesus is a fantasy. That’s fine but do you have any tangible evidence to support this? Also how does it make me weak? Does getting help from someone with my self control make me a weak person or is it just believing in Jesus Christ?
QUOTE
there is a large number of biblical historians that say jesus is a myth.
with NO contemporary accounts , and more…..
END QUOTE
Again show me some evidence of credible biblical historians that believe Jesus Christ was not a real human being like you and I.
QUOTE
share something,…… why do you believe in god?
then …. tell me why other people believe in god …..
END QUOTE
Where do I start hehe! I’ll keep it short and simply say I believe there is no better explanation and evidence for our existence, the world and the universe than that of an omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good god. It’s faith that I have come to know Jesus Christ but the existence of a God I believe can be proven through logic and reason aided by empirical science. If you want me to expand on that I would be more than happy too.
Why other people believe in God is an interesting question. I can’t read minds so I can’t really say but I would think lots of people would believe in a God for the same reasons that I do and many many other reasons.
Why don’t you Bovered believe in a god?
Who won that battle? I agree with the simplistic point Nook Wanderer made. Religion is as much about gaining power and control over the mind of man, and the stupid thing is we fall for the fairy stories passed down from the Dream Times. Any belief system that promotes itself above the rights of others to differs (”God’s Chosen People” are abound) is something I want to stay as far away from as possible. Claiming Superiority is not how I want to live my life. Christianity, Judaism and Islam all claim to be right and yet look what they have to do to each other to prove their point.
Humanism creates a wonderful sense of peace within my soul. To each his own, it is always about choice for the individual. Long may we have a secular Australia in which to share our differences.